I just read the comment by fraserofthenight (with the link to http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=17350 ) to your latest news at http://2dboy.com/2008/08/24/updates-balls-absinthe-drm-aug-24/ and just wanted to thank you - again - for your no-DRM position.

All in all, there are two games that I keep reinstalling over and over for some years now: it's "Populous: The Beginning" and "Uplink" by Introversion.

"Populous: The Beginning" was released in 1998 and was targeting Windows 95 as the platform it was supposed to be running. When I tried to install and run it under Win2K it kept requesting the original CD which was very much inserted in my drive. After applying the no-CD crack it worked like a charm...
This means that the game isn't Win2K-compatible because the DRM isn't! And this forced me, a paying customer, into breaking DMCA law!!
I have to admit that I don't really care about that point because I don't feel guilty at all and would actually be quite interested how a judge would think about this :p
And now, ten years later, I'm *still* very much pissed concerning EA...

"Uplink", on the other hand, did only have a quite oldschool copy-protection scheme that required you to enter a certain hex code from a piece of black paper with clear writing, i.e. you had to hold that sheet in a certain angle to before a light source to read that stuff... this was annoying but also somewhat cool because it's also a very oldschool game. I simply wrote down all the codes once (like I did with oh so many other games before) to save myself from sore eyes and that was it. No bad feelings...
However, Introversion did also release "Uplink" for the Mac... I had to buy it again... I somewhat accepted to do that since some other company was doing the port and they need something to eat, pay their bills, etc., blabla, too. It was a download-only purchase without the possibility to purchase a boxed version (for more money?) at all so they were sending a key via email...
I don't know if or where I still have a copy of the key. I still have an installed version on my old iBook G3 but I don't know where the game is saving the key, either. While I have to admit that I didn't put much effort into rescuing my valid key (yet), the existence of that protection scheme alone has prevented me from installing "Uplink" on my new Mac - while I could install the Windows version without any problem at any time...

That's why I feel *very* happy to hear that you put that much trust in your users and that you'll also give us all the platforms we like with a single purchase.

I am spreading the word about "World of Goo" - and will surely do so in the future - and one of my arguments, beside the obvious brilliancy of WoG itself, is the incredibly fairness of you guys, be it the low (i.e. *very* fair) price, the multi-platform nature or - now - your position concerning DRM.

*That's* the way to create lots of happy customers :D

While I can only speak for myself, I've bought *every* game that was worth it - even if I played a pirated copy before...

On the other hand, I ignored other games completely *because* of tremendously perky DRM, that I would've otherwise bought.
"Vampire: Bloodlines" comes to my mind immediately because I read in a review that it wouldn't start if software like Daemon Tools or SoftICE were installed on the same system...

wtf???

I really would have liked to play that game but I don't *have* to play it and I don't *have* to give Activision my money if they think they can tell me what I may and may not install on *my* system. That game was released in 2003 and I *still* remember this bad DRM idea...

The same is - and sorry, now I'll digress completely - the case with music and movies...

I have a pretty hard time actually spending money on music since I have to go to an actual store to buy a CD so I can check that it's a real audio CD and not some crippled beast that I can't import into iTunes.
Contrary to what the music industry obviously still believes I don't actually *use* my audio CDs as audio CDs. I rip them once and listen to the music on my iPod/iPhone. I just want to *have* the CD because I *like* CDs.
I'd also consider it quite stupid to use original CDs in a car stereo (which couldn'r play DRMed CDs anyway) because >60°C in the summer doesn't really increase the lifetime of a CD.....

To make this short(er), I also didn't buy several CDs simply because they were copy-protected but I was consequent enough to also not listen to that said music, i.e. I didn't download them illegally... i just ignored it like "Vampire" above. One example would've been the last album from The Prodigy.

Trent Reznor from Nine Inch Nails said repeatedly during live performances that people should *please* steal his music since the price his publisher was taking for the CDs was just, in his opinion, much too high.
Consequently, he put up his whole YearZero album on his webpage for free listening. A friend of mine hacked the flash to download the MP3s but we *both* bought the album as soon as it was available (sorry, Trent ;))

He then released a half-hearted (but not bad) remix-album just because he had to deliver one more album to fulfill his contract... it was also available for free listening on his webpage. I bought it. (sorry again, Trent :D)

After that, freed from his former publisher, he released Ghost I-IV where Ghost I was available for free download and II-IV cost 9.99$ for immediate download. I bought the CD anyway. He made 1.5M$ in one week.

Then he released "The Slip" as a completely free download - just to thank all his fans for the great success of the previous release - and, again, I bought the CD anyway!

Like I already said: *That's* the way to create lots of happy, loyal customers :)


Concerning movies, the movie industry in Germany thought it would be a very wise idea to show rather harsh anti-piracy "commercials"/propaganda before the actual movie even though the people they were showing them to *obviously* just bought a ticket!!

The same is the case with DVDs where the customer in Germany is *still* *forced* (i.e. you can't skip them!) to view those commercials.

Sadly, I wasn't able to boycott both cinema *and* DVDs so I just don't visit cinemas anymore and buy DVDs instead.
It's also actually cheaper if more than one person (e.g. my gf or some friends) are watching it and I seriously hope that this hurts the movie industry at least a little bit...

I hope my point of view is quite clear now.

In my opinion there's only one way to really prevent piracy:
Don't release the product!

Everything else will be and has been broken.

Using no DRM, on the other hand, would create guilt - at least in some people *cough, cough* - if the product was pirated.

I would *never* give a copy of WoG away to a friend.

I probably *will* install it on their PCs to show it to them but I'd also remove it again after addicting them thoroughly (that's exactly what happened to me, too :p) and I'm pretty sure that several people in my surrounding are future customers of yours... they are just waiting for the final release, mainly because they are only interested in the Mac version...

Thanks :-*,
Huxi.

Boy, all I can say is congrates on the longest post ever.  ;D

*Agreed*, *very* *long* *post*... *a* *little* *confused* *though* *by* *the* *relevance*, *meaning* *and* *use* *of* *all* *the* *lil* *stars*...*?*

i skimmed it cuz i arent smart r you :)

[quote author=Macatttack link=topic=187.msg1528#msg1528 date=1220051649]
Boy, all I can say is congrates on the longest post ever.   ;D

Thanks ;)
I just couldn't resist...

[quote author=Tair link=topic=187.msg1529#msg1529 date=1220054246]
*Agreed*, *very* *long* *post*... *a* *little* *confused* *though* *by* *the* *relevance*, *meaning* *and* *use* *of* *all* *the* *lil* *stars*...*?*

*Stars* around words are normally used to display that word bold in email clients. I was just too lazy to use the correct markup.  8)

Your mention of music DRM reminded me of a band who put a song for download and told the public to just pay for it what they deem it worth. Imo, that's a pretty cool idea. I know 'a friend' who doesn't always pay for songs, who would definitely pay an amount for a song like that instead of just downloading it somewhere else. Using a system like that, you reach more people directly, and the money goes directly to the artist as well.

I totally agree.
I have a few legally bought games and can't play them anymore because of the copy protection. :-(

[quote author=Huxi link=topic=187.msg1527#msg1527 date=1220046943]
The same is the case with DVDs where the customer in Germany is *still* *forced* (i.e. you can't skip them!) to view those commercials.


There is a easy way around this problem:
At the beginning you are asked for your language. Choose for example Chinese or some other special language. The commercial will not show and you are instantly redirected to the English menu.

introversion keeps all cd-key's in your account on their site, if you bought from them.  :D

don't confuse cd-key's with DRM.  unless that key is called home, it's not DRM.  It's just a key to unlock and any compatible key will work, even non-legit ones.  IE Quake 3 had a cd-key.  It wasn't even needed to play the game, JUST for internet MP, and that was with servers on their master server.  Everything else worked fine. 

but the sad thing about your argument is that the people who REALLY matter don't care (the guys in charge of the companies that make the decisions.  Odds are if 2d was publishing through a big publisher it wouldn't be their decision).  It's like guns & violence links.  It's ignored that violence occurs even if there are no guns present, only stats of guns + violence are released, not stress + violence, etc.

[quote author=Marius link=topic=187.msg1535#msg1535 date=1220057951]
Your mention of music DRM reminded me of a band who put a song for download and told the public to just pay for it what they deem it worth. Imo, that's a pretty cool idea. I know 'a friend' who doesn't always pay for songs, who would definitely pay an amount for a song like that instead of just downloading it somewhere else. Using a system like that, you reach more people directly, and the money goes directly to the artist as well.


...was this Radiohead? I know when their latest album, 'In Rainbows', first hit the scene they did a similar scheme - pay what you think its worth.

I agree -- for us consumers, DRM sucks, and the draconian measures companies go to to "prevent piracy" are insulting and ineffective. What I was calling for is a more simple CD-key-like system to catch people who simply don't know it's not a free game or that giving the game to a friend or publishing it as a download on their own website isn't okay to do.

People who want to pirate a game, will pirate the game (with a little know-how) - DRM or no. But DRM prevents people from unknowingly pirating the game. For example, what if the top Google hit for "World of Goo" became some site that had a copy available for direct HTTP download. People might just assume WoG is freeware. Similarly, if I'd never heard of a crack or keygen, WoG would be one of the only games I could just "give" to my friends... and the lack of a prompt for a key might even make me think it's perfectly legal.

The more obtrusive/"secure" DRM does nothing but make the experience worse for legal consumers. E.x. Spore -- you can only install it 3 times? WTF? That doesn't hurt the crackers at all; within 24 hours of release some piracy group will have released a crack that "fixes" that. It only hurts the legal consumers. But asking for a key on install doesn't hurt anybody.

All that said, I respect Kyle's decision here -- if he thinks no-DRM will be the best option then more power to him.

[quote author=Tair link=topic=187.msg1539#msg1539 date=1220109569]
[quote author=Marius link=topic=187.msg1535#msg1535 date=1220057951]
Your mention of music DRM reminded me of a band who put a song for download and told the public to just pay for it what they deem it worth. Imo, that's a pretty cool idea. I know 'a friend' who doesn't always pay for songs, who would definitely pay an amount for a song like that instead of just downloading it somewhere else. Using a system like that, you reach more people directly, and the money goes directly to the artist as well.


...was this Radiohead? I know when their latest album, 'In Rainbows', first hit the scene they did a similar scheme - pay what you think its worth.

Yeah I think it was. Name rings a bell, anyway.

[quote author=fraserofthenight link=topic=187.msg1561#msg1561 date=1220576790]
I agree -- for us consumers, DRM sucks, and the draconian measures companies go to to "prevent piracy" are insulting and ineffective. What I was calling for is a more simple CD-key-like system to catch people who simply don't know it's not a free game or that giving the game to a friend or publishing it as a download on their own website isn't okay to do.

I wouldn't have a problem with a CD key either, I just mentioned the key problematic above to show that even such a simple, straightforward and fair thing can become a problem.

I also think that such a key shouldn't be checked against a server on the internet if there is no online gaming involved since otherwise you can't install/run the game without a connection. If those servers are gone at some time (either temporary or because the company folds up) you wouldn't be able to install/play it anymore.

If, on the other hand, the keys aren't checked against servers there is just nothing to prevent keygens or at least pirated keys.

I have to admit - to my great shame - that my Spore box is already waiting for me at home...

I simply couldn't resist because I was eagerly waiting for it's release for so long - and I'm already pre-annoyed before I even played it  >:(

ok, ill bite. i must be the only idiot here that doesnt know what the heck drm is!!!!!!!!! >:(

DRM is the abbreviation of Digital Rights (Restrictions) Management. The term is primarily used in connection with audio or video.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_rights_management

More to the point of this topic is the following article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SecuROM

...especially the part under the "Controversies" headline.

ohhhhhhh, thanks, im only 13, and thus not brilliant as you peoples :)

Ah, the differences between 2dboy and EA...

2dboy trusttheir customers and give everyone a warm fuzzy feeling, causing them not to be stupid pirates because it's easier not to.

EA tries too hard and fails miserably.

Thus, I propose that 2dboy take over EA using subliminal messaging hidden in the goo. (Ok, ok, but I have a right to dream, don't I?)

no you dont, i stoled your dreams!

[quote author=Nic Freed link=topic=187.msg1573#msg1573 date=1220816304]
ohhhhhhh, thanks, im only 13, and thus not brilliant as you peoples :)

Ha, so am I.  :P

[quote author=Macatttack link=topic=187.msg1634#msg1634 date=1221279333]
[quote author=Nic Freed link=topic=187.msg1573#msg1573 date=1220816304]
ohhhhhhh, thanks, im only 13, and thus not brilliant as you peoples :)

Ha, so am I.  :P

but our main difference is that you can afford photoshop, while im stuck with gimp :)

[quote author=Nic Freed link=topic=187.msg1638#msg1638 date=1221328400]
[quote author=Macatttack link=topic=187.msg1634#msg1634 date=1221279333]
[quote author=Nic Freed link=topic=187.msg1573#msg1573 date=1220816304]
ohhhhhhh, thanks, im only 13, and thus not brilliant as you peoples :)

Ha, so am I.  :P

but our main difference is that you can afford photoshop, while im stuck with gimp :)

Oh, actually I got the whole adobe package because it was on sale at the apple store for only about $300.  :P

hmmm, still too poor to afford it :(
oh yeah, since u like phun mac, i have a youtube tag that can access both of my accounts, just type in "funnyhatday" and you can get my accounts, one of them does phun tutorials and spore videos, the other messes with songs :)

Strange, I don't think if I have ever talked about 2D Boy and World of Goo in my several ramblings about the issue of DRM and piracy.

(links to my often lengthy thoughts on the topic there)

Anyway one of the best things about World of Goo (apart from how good the game seems to be) is the lack of DRM. I personally think DRM is getting way out of hand and is more likely to cause people to pirate the game than anything.

Just the thoughts of a blogger ;)

Chris, please accept a hearty internet handshake and the knowledge that many people feel the same.

*accepts the hearty internet handshake*

:D

I want my Goo =[

Will I be able to install the gooey goodness to multiple computers and download it multiple times so I can play the game everywhere - seeing as it is DRM free?

Yes you will be able and yes you may, as long as you're the owner of the PCs.

I was considering pirating this game before, because I'm an asshole. After hearing about the non-DRM stuff, I shifted way over to the "want to buy" side :P

[quote author=Hideous link=topic=187.msg1761#msg1761 date=1223224347]
I was considering pirating this game before, because I'm an asshole. After hearing about the non-DRM stuff, I shifted way over to the "want to buy" side :P

Good job for admitting your problems.  :P
Cool that your buying it cause pirating indy games kinda sucks.  :-\

[quote author=Macatttack link=topic=187.msg1762#msg1762 date=1223228212]
[quote author=Hideous link=topic=187.msg1761#msg1761 date=1223224347]
I was considering pirating this game before, because I'm an asshole. After hearing about the non-DRM stuff, I shifted way over to the "want to buy" side :P

Good job for admitting your problems.  :P
Cool that your buying it cause pirating indy games kinda sucks.  :-\


Kinda? I'd say that pirating indie devs is not only low but also rather stupid, especially if they have no DRM.

Hideous, allow me to say: Good Man! I hope you enjoy your legal purchase!

Yeah, being a one-year member at TIGforums has also changed my view of piracy a lot.

Yeah obviously I'd only put it on my computers I don't pirate anything, regardless of how much some of the gaming and music industry pisses me off... we should make like MLK and go about it the peaceful way rather than just resorting to pirating like crazy. Even if we changed the ways of all the big guys I wouldn't want to rip off a single employee in one single hard working 2D Boy kinda company.