Can we talk tower?

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Can we talk tower?AldenteVonTino12/24/2009 - 15:27

I have several observations with Goo Balls and tower making.
I am quite sure I only have less than 1/3 of the total observations from everyone trying to make a tower, considering how long it's been available and how long I've played.
Anyone care to discuss anything? Like tension? Suspension? Weight? Motion? Something else?
(Or would this be TOO much info, and possibly a spoiler thread?)
8) ??? 8)

Re: Can we talk tower?AldenteVonTino12/28/2009 - 12:52

84 views of this topic and no one has anything to say yet?
Ok, I'll start!
How do you all feel about arches in a tower?
An arch is a goo-d structure: Strong, supportive, slightly flexible.
It's where my studies of the Goo Balls is now! The tension and suspension of an arch is what I am focused on at the moment...
...Both relaxed and stressed Goo Balls.
8) ??? 8)

Re: Can we talk tower?LTumbleweed12/28/2009 - 12:53

Not really into the tower building myself but youtube is a good place to start.

Re: Can we talk tower?AldenteVonTino12/29/2009 - 13:42

My guess is no one wants to talk tower for fear of giving away anything to those just starting out.
Oh well, I tried. 131 views though. Means something...

Re: Can we talk tower?pauljs7501/01/2010 - 20:13

Is there really a secret?  ???

I'm somewhat a newb to this game myself. But I made some observations based on how the game plays, YouTube vids, and some of the record tower designs recorded at the related Goofans website. All I can say is that these observations might be helpful if it's not already obvious enough. (Perhaps that's why there's not a reply?)

    [li]The basic standard goo balls are pretty weak under compression.  :P If there's enough stress applied, they'll buckle under.[/li]
    [li]On the other hand, the goo balls are awesome under tension.  ;D It takes quite a lot of strain to break them apart.[/li]
    [li]Free goo balls think they're being helpful, but really you'd rather they'd wait somewhere else more convienient. (Which is what makes it challenging, and perhaps harder when there's more of them.)[/li]
    [li]The game really is an engineering physics problem simulator of sorts in a cute wrapper.[/li]

Based on some YouTube vids, it seems there's a practice to shift a load above a gap by building a cantilever, such that when a goo is placed to span that gap it will be under tension when that load is removed. So there's an ongoing process of construction and deconstruction to ensure there is some degree of tension in order to support the load. The only way I can think of to describe it is "craning" because the structures resemble cranes. (And because they're like actual cranes in the fact that they're temporary structures used to build towers.) Note that "craning" (for lack of a better name) itself has its own risks due to to shifting balance, etc. So it's no guarantee of sucess.  ::)

Also in the vids I've seen, people either build "bait balls" or use scraps of older tower wreckages to build from. This tends to keep the free Goos from making too much of a dynamic load on the tower currently being built. Considering getting good structures with only static loads is tricky enough, not having the free goos on the tower introducing vibration or shifting weight seems like a good idea. Yet once you really start going up, throwing some free goos on the tower is necessary because otherwise it takes to long to grab them when they're needed to perform various balancing acts.
Despite all that, getting the towers to go up is quite an art like building a house of cards. There is no foundation or anchor to speak of, and once momentum has its way, even the most sturdy one can flop over. So there really isn't a specific way to achieve this goal.

Re: Can we talk tower?AldenteVonTino01/07/2010 - 10:11

I love the in-depth way your post reads, and thank you! This is precisely what I had hoped for: a discussion of the observations of Goo-Balls, tower building, and etc! I knew there was at least ONE other studying them close! I wonder if there are any more?
I began building my towers with pure stressed Goo-Balls, literally tossing them together to see what they did. I myself learn MUCH better (at anything) if I give it a try. It wasn't until about a week ago I began watching videos. I'm human, so I error and hence learn. The videos improved my game-play as well as my understanding of Goo Balls. World of Goo is, quite literally, my new school.
The structure of Goo Balls under tension makes for a great counter-weight when I've been making my arches recently. Tossing relaxed Goo-Balls for any balance requirements while I create necessary support for said requirements, then removing the relaxed Goo Balls makes it more simple; For me anyways.
Free Goo Balls are, in point of fact, literally free. Three(3) weigh as much as a triangle of either relaxed or stressed Goo Balls, in my personal observations anyways. I could be wrong, for my actual testing structure was slightly 'wobbly'. (lol!)
Yes, construction and it's reverse are necessary, I think everyone can see this once they use 300 Goo Balls. The trick is to keep both balance AND support in check. Taking out the wrong Goo Ball can lead to the sudden "BOOM" we all dread. On the other hand, taking out the right Goo Ball can not only lead to  structure support and balance enforcement, but add more than one Goo Ball to the list of the free!
I don't know why, but for now I'm stuck on building arches. One phrase from an interview I read with the 2DBoys said something about "The laws of physics can not be changed, but they can be bent." It's stuck in my brain and I can't get it out...
...I keep thinking arches!

Re: Can we talk tower?AldenteVonTino01/11/2010 - 15:28

Has anyone other than myself explored the Goo-Ball arches? ???
Has anyone other than myself tried to make a giant Goo-Ball ball?  ???
Take a stab at them both; You might be amused!  8)

Re: Can we talk tower?keybounce01/27/2010 - 02:57

I have been playing with arches, but I have yet to get an arch design that I can repeat as-needed (they tend to vary slightly from build to build).

Worse, the ones I've built don't seem to do the goal of an arch: Reduce weight, push the load down through a narrow point, and spread the load from above you to prevent collapse. In other words, when I put arches on top of arches, it all falls down.

Re: Can we talk tower?AldenteVonTino02/16/2010 - 10:34

Thank you Keybounce for your input! Any and all comments/inputs/suggestions/etc are welcome by any and all members! I'm sure together we can unlock more of the mystery of the Goo-Balls! (In fact, I'll be working on a 'dictionary' of sorts for understanding what the Goo-Balls are trying to say when we build with them! Kind of a translator of the Goo-Ball physics to English, if you will.)
An arch is indeed a complex form to create consistently, I agree. Symmetric creation of such a structure does help bunches, yet as you say still: 'vary slightly from build to build'.
I first began making an arch by creating a tall connection of triangles until they started to lean, then creating supports underneath from the bottom, so as to maintain height. I did this both with taught Goo-Balls and relaxed ones as well, to the same conclusion.
Then I began to explore taught and relaxed together and discovered there is a need (most of the time) for another Goo-Ball between them, sort of forming a basic 'kite' design with a cross in the middle and a border all around the points.
This has seemed, so far, the strongest pattern yet. Symmetry in construction, however, still seems a key factor for the arch.
On a different topic, for those needing a tip or two about building, if you place your cursor over an attached Goo-Ball and ONLY click without moving the cursor, you can check the tension of your structure. Do this with several Goo-Balls and pay attention to the way it sways and you will learn where your structure is weakest.
If your cursor is closer to the top of the Goo-Ball, you will push DOWN; If it's on the bottom, you will push UP; On the left, you push RIGHT and if on the right, you push LEFT.
:o REMEMBER: Do NOT move your cursor as you click! Your structure may not only sway, but swing and/or sag badly if the Goo-Ball is removed! :o

Re: Can we talk tower?keybounce02/16/2010 - 12:49

Beware of that click-test. I have had that topple a tower that was barely stable. It does shake the whole thing.

I do have a question on stressed balls. I have found that if I make a very short connection, the balls will push out to a "natural" length. Equally, if I make a long connection from a small base, it contracts back to a different natural length.

Roughly speaking, a tower built from the short lengths will be 1m tall at one layer of triangles, while a long length is 1.2m. The "starting" triangle, iirc, is 1.1m.

But I can't make a long connection stay long, unless it is connecting between existing balls. Once I do that, it seems to stay, and stay strong; however, I can't reliably get those long connections where I want them.

Re: Can we talk tower?AldenteVonTino02/17/2010 - 09:34

I recall testing a tower using the starting triangle and it's size throughout the construction. It held the same problems as relaxed and stressed. In fact I gave up on it before I even hit the 20m mark due to it's instability.
Are the long connections to which you are referring to between Goo-Balls already on the structure? Those are Strand Balls and I do believe they can only be made when Goo-Balls to connect are within a certain distance; I also believe there has to be a need for tension (or support) in that area for the Goo-Ball to connect. (This second part is NOT proven yet.)
I had done some testing of which makes a taller tower: One with more Strands, or one with more nodes. My results came out to be an almost balanced amount of both. This, however, could be tested further as this test was what gave me the notion to try arches and I moved on.
I would love to hear some more inputs/comments/etc!

Re: Can we talk tower?AldenteVonTino02/24/2010 - 17:00

Those silly Goo-Balls! Once you start to really understand certain translations, they go and change dialects on you! (Maybe the difference pertain to the different structures being built, or  similarities between them?)
Bottom line, I will upload my latest profile (ie: test of vocabulary application into a structure) shortly just prove I'm not just a writer posting blatant words on a forum in regards to Goo-Balls actually trying to communicate. Goo-Balls really are trying to tell us how to build!
Happy building!

Re: Can we talk tower?AldenteVonTino02/26/2010 - 09:28

New tips to add for Tower building:
When constructing your Tower, it is sometimes a good idea to 'toss' a Goo-Ball at it to test the structure's stability and support. Note how the structure sways when the missile hits it, and note how long it takes for it to return to where it was at. Do this for both sides and correct any massive variances with counter-weights or added support. (Note: Be VERY careful on hard you 'toss' the Goo-Ball! You could knock your structure over! Also, too soft could also give inadequate results.)
Also, consider building your Tower the way the Goo-Balls request. As you pass one over a spot within the structure and it seems to wish to connect to two other Goo-Balls, it could be the one you carry is telling you it is necessary for structure stability or support in that spot. (Note: This is not always necessarily a fact, depending on tension placed, suspension used or center of gravity location.)

Last modified Fri, 02/26/2010 - 09:29 by AldenteVonTino