http://www.joystiq.com/2008/11/13/world-of-goo-has-90-piracy-rate/

Ugh angers me so much on too many levels... If you know anyone who got it illegally, smack them silly and make them buy it!

>:(

I agree,
We paid for it, and people are getting it FREE!

people should buy it not get it free!

I bought it and got the wii and PC version and i love it!  :)

Wow, I've installed it on the same machine several times from different IP's I hope I'm not "contributing to the 90% rate"

But seriously it's 20 bucks you really should just buy the &^*% game!  And if you "just wanna try" there's a demo use that instead!

Damn...and it's the most humble, well designed, characteristic, charismatic game of recent times, probably the ONE game that actually hurts to see pirated.

:( When GTA 4 started getting leaked, I didn't care, but with this, it's a whole other level of sadness. :(

This astounds me and upsets me greatly.
First off, it's a cheap game, and believe me, it's worth all 20 bucks.
Secondly, this game was made by 2 people (for the most part), they're living on the hope that people will buy their game. If it was a huge corporation (like that of Goo), it would not be that big of a deal. However, it's a small time company that needs the rewards that come with making a great game.

Maybe its because in the early days there was no demo at all, so ppl just downloaded the game from torrent sites, and now they are too lazy to buy. BTW Do you know about other games and their piracy rate? just for comparison...

I bought World of Goo on the wii for 1500 points, played through it all. Started over again. Downloaded the torrent version for my pc.
I was going to buy it on steam, but it's actually more expensive on there.
Just wanted to say that even though I add in to that piracy figure, I have actually already purchased the game, and will recommend it to others.

Frankly the lure of "piracy" has always seemed to me to be (a) avoiding overexaggerated price compounded by corporate bullshit structure and overcomplication (b) being able to get the game immediately, in your country, without having to go to a store or have someone ship it (c) being able to try before you buy and (d) not contributing to a pyramid scheme of corporate greed. None of these apply to Ron and Kyle so I'm astounded their piracy rate is STILL so high. Fuck'em! I've bought two copies for myself and I'll be buying four more for my family when the European box comes out!

Actually, the 90% piracy figure doesn't surprise me at all (but I do hope they counted player internet keys instead of just IP addresses and accounted for three profile slots per sale, or that figure doesn't make sense). Many people who copy software do so without thinking and without moral objections; they don't care specifically whether they are ripping of a big faceless corporation or a loveable two-man operation. To be honest, I don't think it should matter, either.

At any rate, I had not expected the unauthorized copy ratio to be lower just because this game is from an independent developer or because it's multi-platform or because it's DRM free. Those are things only customers care about and it doesn't really affect the copyers one way or the other. It should be clear by now that for any software product the number of illegitimate users dwarfs the number of legitimate users, so even if you double the number of customers, the ratio doesn't change that much.

All things considered, I'm just glad 2D Boy was smart enough to not punish their real customers with a draconian DRM scheme. I can understand the desire from software developers to protect their investments and to keep their users honest, but if you spend considerable resources on people who do not buy from you, while essentially pissing of your actual clientèle, you have your priorities wrong. Punishing pirates does not make you money; pleasing your customers does.

That being said, I would be interested in piracy figures from other games. I have a hunch that DRM-protected games (Spore, etc.) don't actually fare any better than DRM-free games like World of Goo. If that is true, then World of Goo is already succesful in that the developers avoided wasting a bunch of money and time buying into a DRM scheme, which they hopefull spend on improving the game and providing support to their customers.

I've bought it on pc, and I'll be buying it on Wii when it comes out, because of the lack of DRM.. The point is still that people who buy games will buy more without a DRM.

The people who are pirating it need to have someone come round and clip them over the back of the head. Without cash coming in the door for developers, we don't have games eventually.

I'm a bit intrigued how you come up with a '90%' piracy rate. Are they saying they've sold 100 copies, and are seeing 190 on the leaderboards? Or that there's 100 machines connecting to the leaderboard, and they've only sold 10 copies? (Obviously, scaled up)

There's an order of magnitude difference between that, you know. And both could be called '90%' piracy.

However, they did the right thing. DRM _only hurts paying customers_. Wether or not you DRM your software, it's going to be cracked and warezed seconds after it leaves the building. The sensible idea is to just go 'meh' and accept that customers will pay, and pirates won't.

Anyway, I hadn't even heard of this game until today, when that ambiguous and fear-mongering post was spammed all over the net. So, if the end result was to sell more copies, then they win, by at least one (mine).

--Rob

It's damned disappointing to see numbers like that, but I can honestly say I'm not surprised. Pirates will pirate regardless of DRM.

I, too, wonder if it's much different than games that ship with DRM. I suspect it's not too far different at all.

Anyway, I'll just close by saying it's an awesome game and was more than worth the 20 bucks. I'll be buying at least one more copy and it's possible that could rise to 3 or 4 more, depending on circumstances. Kudos to 2dBoy. You guys really did an awesome job and delivered a really fun game. Don't let the piracy numbers get you down. Those bloody leeches aren't worth considering.

If anyone knows someone that pirated this game, give them a slap up the side of the head and order them to buy a copy. Good gods, it's only 20 bucks!

I doubt they would have sold more, if it had DRM. I think it would just mean they hadn't had as much players at this moment, because DRM had to be cracked first.

Would pirating players have added value in word-of-mouth advertisement, bringing in more paying customers as well?
*wonders...


Edit: What I'm curious about, is, how did they come up with these figures? How would they accurately judge the piracy rate?

[quote author=Marius link=topic=788.msg5798#msg5798 date=1226647695]Edit: What I'm curious about, is, how did they come up with these figures? How would they accurately judge the piracy rate?

[quote author=Daid link=topic=788.msg5810#msg5810 date=1226659979]And I don't have a credit card (don't trust those)


1) paypal lets you use a bank account.
2) you can buy a pre-paid CC in stores
3) a CC is SAFER then Steam.  Valve doesn't have to do squat to help you out if something goes wrong (check their better business site, lots of complaints), CC companies normally don't charge you a penny if something is wrong: bad product, false advertising, stolen, etc.

now what's the excuse?  Same one as other pirates?  "I don't want to pay, period."

another interesting stat: if they could get the OS's that pirates use.

[quote author=Zwolf link=topic=788.msg5836#msg5836 date=1226694256]
I don't understand the calculation as many countries ISP change IP of their customer every 24 hours ??? 


Yup. That's true in Australia, too.

[quote author=Dev Null link=topic=788.msg5850#msg5850 date=1226721513]
Don't you have a unique id squirreled away in each copy, which gets sent to you as part of the connection?

Ya I was wondering this too: there's a GUID in the profile that presumably gets sent with leaderboard submissions. It'd at least be more accurate than IP addresses. Like others who have posted, my crappy ISP changes my IP address a couple of times a day.

That said, because there's no cd-key identification due to no DRM, those who pirate can happily submit to leaderboard with their own unique GUID. But I suspect pirates are more careful and avoid any online interaction (e.g. software activation, they run firewalls or disconnect Ethernet cables) - unless they've been reading these forums and realise that 2dboy are turning a blind eye (as it were) to it. But I think if they have been, they're the ones who care about the game and are a little more empathic toward Kyle & Ron.

I was part of the 82% but I regularized my situation by paying the 20$ which is really not a lot for a nice game like World of Goo!

2D Boys, you were part of EA, you know everything about bad and expensive games that are far from good. Paying 50-60$ to play a bad game during 5 - 10 hours is too much.

But paying 20$ for a really nice game like yours is OK!

Thanks for your work 2D Boys.

The main problem is that like 98% of people use an IP address which changes.  Since the company is tracking IP's, that is why they are getting so many different IP's compared to sales.  It's as simple as that.  Don't blame file sharers for everything. >:(

[quote author=davidc link=topic=788.msg5860#msg5860 date=1226735836]
That said, because there's no cd-key identification due to no DRM, those who pirate can happily submit to leaderboard with their own unique GUID. But I suspect pirates are more careful and avoid any online interaction (e.g. software activation, they run firewalls or disconnect Ethernet cables) - unless they've been reading these forums and realise that 2dboy are turning a blind eye (as it were) to it. But I think if they have been, they're the ones who care about the game and are a little more empathic toward Kyle & Ron.

I was more thinking of a unique code for each copy of the game, rather than a GUID.  Sure, the pirates can just copy it along with the game, but when you see 20,000 unique IPs using the same code in the same day, you can pretty safely assume that anyone using that code is a pirate.  Same with any code that you never issued.  If you tried to stop them from playing, the pirates would just build a keygen, and you're back in the realm of trying to build unbeatable DRM, which is a losing battle.  But if you just used it for informational purposes, its a lot harder for them to break, since they don't get any feedback.  Plus there's not much incentive; I'm betting the pirates just wouldn't bother.

Of course, if you're burning dvds then putting a unique code on each one is a mess.  Seems like something that should be fairly easy with digital distribution though.

i think most of the pirates are used just to copy each game they can get.
maybe they do not know that WorldOfGoo just costs 20$.

so i have to suggestions:
1. write the price "just 20$" on the top of the worldofgoo.com site.

2. what about the idea that every pirate gets a skull in his tower of goo cloud instead his country flag?

[quote author=spurn link=topic=788.msg5765#msg5765 date=1226607267]
Ugh angers me so much on too many levels... If you know anyone who got it illegally, smack them silly and make them buy it!
>:(

Hey I pirated it, and then bought myself a copy. I distributed it to a bunch of people who wouldn't of even heard of it, so far I know one person who bought it because of me.

The biggest threat to an artist isn't piracy its obscurity.

Keep up the good work Kyle, I've been a fan of your stuff since the Experimental Game Play Project.

Gravity Head FTW!

This results something very sad, this game is great and it's really cheap compared to many crappy hiped games I've played.

I agree with basically everyone else, if you R going to pirate a game from a big company like EA games or something, whatever.

But if you R goin to pirate an amazing game from a company composed of 2 people, thats just sad. :o It is worth the 20 dollars :D
If everyone bought it, new games will come shooting out there noses

:o

I pirated the game for 2 reasons:

1. Wanted to see what it was like first, so downloaded torrent obviously (didn't know there was a demo, maybe if you had a better website....)

2. Crappy online purchasing methods.. Man, if you want to sell copies to lazy people like me, make it easy. FFS, if you even just had a Donate $20 via paypal or something, that would work for me...

Anyhoo, as I type this i've gone to the primary site and seen all the info i have to fill out and given up for lack of care :(

Plus with the crashed dollar, means it costs $40 AUD, which is alot more than $20.

Except now i've just paid for it via steam which was alot easier, so meh. srsly though, why you couldn't just use Paypal and distrobute it urself is beyond me...

Thelen,

I am Australian, and I payed with PayPal (I'm fairly sure - it was a pre-order, so was a while ago).

Go to Harvey Norman and get me a price on Spore or Call of Duty 4. I believe you will find that the $20US you are paying beats the $60US you would pay for these games. So 1/3 the price, and I believe it is 3x the fun!

[quote author=Thelen link=topic=788.msg6309#msg6309 date=1227499808]
2. Crappy online purchasing methods.. Man, if you want to sell copies to lazy people like me, make it easy. FFS, if you even just had a Donate $20 via paypal or something, that would work for me...


If you are too lazy to just visit a website, read its content and see that you can buy this game in one of the simplier way : paypal->email with download link, then nobody can do anything for you...

I was one of the 90% too.

But there was a big writeup in the NFO about the devs and lots of comments on the torrent, about them and what they'd achieved.  So I came and took a look and purchased.

So I agree with the poster above who said obscurity is more damaging than piracy.  I found out about their story from pirating the game.

Others may laugh at this and not believe me (so be it) but there is actually a LOT of support for Indie devs in the torrent circles.  Here's one such comment (the comment which informed me about the guys): http://isohunt.com/torrent_details/51798097/world+of+goo?tab=comments#commentanch_235103

So cheers to the devs.  :)

[quote author=themacmeister link=topic=788.msg6314#msg6314 date=1227511947]
Go to Harvey Norman and get me a price on Spore or Call of Duty 4. I believe you will find that the $20US you are paying beats the $60US you would pay for these games. So 1/3 the price, and I believe it is 3x the fun!


Yea i agree its probably worth the $20 alot more than even those games are worth $20, let alont $60.

[quote author=Boudin link=topic=788.msg6316#msg6316 date=1227517348]

If you are too lazy to just visit a website, read its content and see that you can buy this game in one of the simplier way : paypal->email with download link, then nobody can do anything for you...


Yea it was more frustration that there wasn't a simple way to just plug in a credit card, without having to fill in a form about where you are from, yadda yadda yadda. I really don't think anyone needs to know that tbh...

anyhoo, bought the game through steam which is alot better. but seriously im not the only person out there who would get frustrated with it...

Hm, I don't really get what you have seen. I can just click the "Buy now" link on the website, login my paypal, pay, and then I'm done. You probably clicked the "continue" link on the paypal site, which takes you to the page where you pay with creditcard instead of paypal.

I believe this is a case of user error.

But yeah, if you got it through steam, and you're happy with it, it's fine. Of course, you'll get updates later, you won't support the developers as much, and you won't have access to the mac and linux versions, but yeah.

Seriously guys, you just counted IP addresses? Then the 90% are completely nonsense and if anything they show that there are few pirated copies flying around. IP addresses often are dynamically assigned by the ISP and therefor change frequently. It is in no way fit to measure piracy and even without any piracy at all I'd expect a 10 to 1 ratio there. If that statistics is supposed to have any meaning at all you'd have to take a control group from a game that didn't get pirated (like a MMORPG since they key system is quite safe). Compare their IPs/sales ratio to your own and you might get a very, very rough estimate of real piracy. But be aware that this number, while being more accurate then the 90%, is still flawed. The customer base is obviously very different, the error margin is probably larger then the measured value itself.

On a sidenote: There is no harm in piracy. Somebody who would not buy a game anyway and pirates it then does exactly no harm at all to anyone.
Harm is only done if the game gets pirated by someone who would have bought it otherwise.
The other way around is also possible: Someone who wouldn't have bought it pirates it, likes it and buys it because of that.

Especially with a game like World of Goo I find it highly unlikely that people who actually want to buy it go and pirate it instead. It's only 20 bucks and the whole independent thingy works for you. For other titles this is more severe (the "big" games which all kids in school want) but not for World of Goo.
So even if the pirate quota really was 90% (which it is obviously not since the method to measure it is, sorry to say that, moronic) it doesn't really matter. People with no intention to pay for a product don't matter. People who want to pay for a product matter.

They didn't count IP addresses just like that. There's a blog post explaining it. I believe they counted profiles, divided by the average number of profiles per player.

Still, a very flawed method.

Another thought: Sharing games is not piracy. Starting with board games about every game I ever played I did share at least with the people living in my house (parents, siblings when I was younger, roommates later). Giving the floppy disc and later the CD to a friend is a normal thing to do and not illegal. It's like a used sale or renting it, just that I don't get money from that friend for renting it to him. He just gives me a game he likes when he buys one.
I know that crazy companies like EA claim this very normal and very human behavior to be piracy. But that's because they are simply crazy.
Piracy starts when I do not share my game with my circle of friends but make it available for public. That's why DRM isn't actually fighting piracy: It gets cracked and made available for the public anyway. DRM fights used sales, renting and the common friendly sharing in the same house.

Why this rant? Well, the method used to detect "pirated" copies also includes those ;)

A friend in Italy shot me an email about the game with a link to the torrent. I downloaded an enjoyed it, but about halfway through the game I felt horrible. I mean, I'd never really pirated games before, they're usually too cumbersome, but there was something about World of Goo that renewed my hope in them, so much so that it made me feel guilty.

Long story short, I'm currently studying in the States, so I ran downtown to Best Buy and  bought a copy for myself and a couple others for my friends for Christmas.

Pirating this is like stealing the Mona Lisa, in my opinion.

[quote author=The Happy Friar link=topic=788.msg5832#msg5832 date=1226689364]
1) paypal lets you use a bank account.
In America

[quote author=The Happy Friar link=topic=788.msg5832#msg5832 date=1226689364]2) you can buy a pre-paid CC in stores
In America

[quote author=The Happy Friar link=topic=788.msg5832#msg5832 date=1226689364]Same one as other pirates?  "I don't want to pay, period."
Possibly "I don't have a credit card, you can't buy prepaid credit cards or use paypal with bank accounts if you're not in America"?
I downloaded the game because someone linked me to a "free cool mac game". I was a little surprised when I saw the level of functionality the game allowed so I googled it and found out I had committed piracy. I'll pick up a copy post christmas, when I have the cash to spare and, if you want, not play it until then.

[quote author=The Happy Friar link=topic=788.msg5832#msg5832 date=1226689364]another interesting stat: if they could get the OS's that pirates use.
There may have to be an addition to the software, but there's nothing preventing it.

[quote author=MegaVolt link=topic=788.msg7041#msg7041 date=1228830210]
Sharing games is not piracy.
Yes it is.

[quote author=MegaVolt link=topic=788.msg7041#msg7041 date=1228830210]Giving the floppy disc and later the CD to a friend is a normal thing to do and not illegal.
Yes it is.
It is an infringement of the End User Licence Agreement and Copyright Theft.

[quote author=MegaVolt link=topic=788.msg7041#msg7041 date=1228830210]It's like a used sale or renting it, just that I don't get money from that friend for renting it to him.
Except for you having a renting licence and paying a lot more money for the copy to be rented.

[quote author=akari no ryu link=topic=788.msg7251#msg7251 date=1229210711][quote author=The Happy Friar link=topic=788.msg5832#msg5832 date=1226689364]1) paypal lets you use a bank account.In AmericaAnd the Netherlands, at least.
[quote author=akari no ryu link=topic=788.msg7251#msg7251 date=1229210711][quote author=The Happy Friar link=topic=788.msg5832#msg5832 date=1226689364]2) you can buy a pre-paid CC in storesIn AmericaOr online

[quote author=martinarcand1 link=topic=788.msg7255#msg7255 date=1229216314]
not really.. depends on the game, some games yuo need the CD to play some don't.  If you don't need the cd to play then yes, it's illegal.

If you do need the CD it's not illegal...
What's your basis for that?
Mine is having studied the legality of software licences as a senior developper in a computer programming firm. The result of my having consulted with lawyers, judges and solicitors is that you are wrong.
The installation of a program you did not buy is piracy.
Whether or not the cd is needed is completely irrelevant.
It was piracy back in the days of eight inch floppies, from which the Pan-Atlantic court cases come which set the precedent for this, and it's piracy now.
You didn't need the disks then but it was piracy.
Furthermore you don't need the CD to play World of Goo (which I have uninstalled since finding it was a pirated game), so you really don't have a leg to stand on.

[quote author=martinarcand1 link=topic=788.msg7255#msg7255 date=1229216314]Think of it as giving a book to someone, if you'd still be able to read the book while someone else has it that'd be illegal :D
That is not comparing like with like.
It's actually giving someone an exact replica of the book.
Which is copyright theft.
Just like copying it off the CD.

[quote author=martinarcand1 link=topic=788.msg7255#msg7255 date=1229216314]But since you lose your book privilege while someone else has it it's considered legal.
Which you don't do with computer games.

I just did an exhaustive research on the impact of Internet on the movie copyright industry, and came to the conclusion that DRMs were all-around flawed and counterproductive measures, since they could impair fair use while still not slowing down piracy.

The same idea applies just as well to the gaming industry, in my opinion. I was really glad to learn that World of Goo was DRM-free, and though it suffered a high piracy rate, I doubt it's much higher than any DRM-protected game. Plus, the whole idea that someone who pirates the game wouldn't have bought it in the first place, while piracy can still spread awareness about a product and eventually lead to more sales as people decide the software is worth forking over some money for.

And I just want to point out that I bought the game, before even trying it, and it was so totally worth it. 20$ doesn't even come close to the real value of this little gem of the indie gaming world.

If you pirated this game you are an asshole it's well worth the money and it's not even expensive so stop being cheap and fucking pay!

First of all, (personal) sharing ISN'T piracy.

Just because US law makes letting friends play your games a crime, there's no reason to think the two different concepts are identical -- there's enough countries with different laws to disprove that claim.

Secondly, piracy ISN'T always bad.

Independent music is probably the best example of obscure brands (or bands, in this case) trying to gain popularity and attention by giving away their work for free. Obviously most indie bands remain obscure despite this tactic, but in some cases it works well enough to create an actual fanbase and thus a market.

Even for commercial products, piracy may increase awareness and thus make sales possible that wouldn't have been otherwise. Whether (and how much, if the price isn't fixed) those who enjoy the product pay for it is another question and comes down to the ethics, capabilities and reasoning of the individual.

For already well-known brands (e.g. EA) this benefit is obviously close to nil, especially when awareness is attempted to be avoided at all cost by creating hype through obscurity (Spore is a good example for this -- many customers were deeply dissatisfied with the final product and wouldn't have paid for it, had they thoroughly tested it in advance). In this case it acts as a regulating force for Quality Assurance (in the literal sense), which obviously runs contrary to the interests of those producing such titles (namely, EA et al.).

The important idea behind this is that someone somewhere eventually pays for the product and wouldn't have otherwise. As long as the ratio of those people to those who would have bought it HADN'T they (pirated and) played it first is at least 1-to-1, piracy actually INCREASES profit rather than hampering sales.

Regardless, piracy is inherent to software, just as re-selling is inherent to books and bootlegging is inherent to films and music (even before the Digital Millenium) and dying is to life, so there's no point in arguing against it, simply because it can't be gotten rid of. All you can do is use it to your advantage or discouraging it.

And there lies the problem with DRM: pirates don't have to deal with DRM. If you downloaded a DRM'ed game illegally, the game will most likely already be free of any DRM-induced troubles that plague the original. If you illegally downloaded an album, you'll be free to play it in any CD drive and on any MP3 player you have, no matter what restrictions the record companies put on the original.

DRM encourages piracy, because it targets customers, not pirates. Pirates don't have to bypass DRM, crackers do. And crackers ENJOY having to bypass DRM, because it's an intellectual challenge for them. If at all, you end up punishing those who give you money and rewarding those who don't.

DRM is not the answer and piracy isn't the problem.

[quote author=martinarcand1 link=topic=788.msg7255#msg7255 date=1229216314]But since you lose your book privilege while someone else has it it's considered legal.
Which you don't do with computer games.


... which you DO if you NEED the cd to play the game..

Your credentials are pretty useless being the Internet and all.. For all you know I could be Al Gore. CREATOR of the Internet. Or Tim Berners Lee for all you could care ;)

[quote author=martinarcand1 link=topic=788.msg7457#msg7457 date=1229672200]
[quote author=martinarcand1 link=topic=788.msg7255#msg7255 date=1229216314]But since you lose your book privilege while someone else has it it's considered legal.

Just bought my copy of WoG at http://www.2dboy.com/games.php.

20,00 USD directly for the developers of this great game, with only 14,41 EUR taken from my bank account.  ;D

I first thought about buying the game over at steampowered.com, but after their very recent change in price policy for europeans that would be probably a lose-lose situation for me and the developers. I would've had to pay more and probably even less of the money would've ended up at the developers bank account.  :(

@topic: I think 90% is the average rate of piracy, independent of type and price of a software product. Not that I don't care, but it isn't surprising.


Best greetings from Austria to all Gooians out there!

When I read that 90% piracy rate thing, I thought to myself - "Hey, that's gotta be a neat game if so many pirate it, how come I never heard of it before?"

Checking it out, I also discovered it sported no DRM, and that there even is a Linux version in the works which I'll get once it's done.

That's all I needed to know, so here I am, a fully paid up customer, all because of rampant piracy.  ;D

...and if you excuse me, now I'm off to see if the game is any good.