There was some talks about piracy and bad 2DBoy`s finance situation because of it. yes?
And,  as I understand, there are a lot of peoples who think that it is too few chapters in the story of Goo?

Why not to think about online downloading new chapters for subscribers?

Demo is free, (1`st chapter) and every next chapter costs 3-5 euro?
And every month - new chapter.

Every next level is downloaded from server during playing, only passed levels are stored on clients host.
The Last 1-3 chapters is allowed only from online level-by-level downloading.
Levels of older chapters could be loaded as a whole packets.

It will not stop "piracy", but will decrease it, as i think.
And it will be good for players who wants more-and-more-Goo)

PS: We want "More lemmings! GOOs!"

PPS: Functions for online downloading could be included into demo - so, there would be the only one version of program - "the main", but not "free" and "full" versions as it is now.
You can also add into programm a support downloading levels from goofans.com - selling or free downloading, as level`s autors wish.

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sory for bad english >_<

I'm backing you up, denjs. I think that this is an interesting idea and it would decrease piracy. Also, the idea of a new chapter every month is ;D ;D ;D. Send personal messages to kyle and ron asking them this.

Wouldn't stop piracy if it impacted on it at all. I would just mean a cracked version of the demo would appear that can access all the downloads. :( Think early shareware games like Descent.

What about people who don't have a constant or stable internet connection and therefore had to buy the boxed game. That idea would instantly annoy all those people.

I bet it took considerably longer than a month to come up with the ideas for each chapter, design them, program new goo, create images/sounds and debug problems! The only way this could possibly work is with much smaller chapters. Not something I want. :(

See your point. Well, it almost was :'(.

I did not said stop. i said decrease.
Nobody can stop it now ) but if you can`t stop the Giant Wave - try to surf and be faster then wave.


In the model of online level-by-level downloading, new levels will be downloaded only after the solving level.
So - there will not be the oportunity to get all levels "in fast" - you have to play and solve levels to download new ones. It will take time.

Additionally - the limitation of stored levels could be added - like cashed 5 levels of a 10 level`s chapler.
And the limitation should not be like a parameter - the code should be restructured ) (it is not too hard for programmer but it will create a big hardship for cracker to encrease a cash size.)

So, there will not be needs to make "cracked version of the demo would appear that can access all the downloads" - you need not 5 levels from 10 levels chapter. yes? and download acsess is allowed for subscripters and controlled by server.


For whosу who want to play offline - function to download into cash next 5 levels for offline solving
After that, you needs to connect to internet again do load into cash new levels.

Older chapters - sell with low price and in a whole packet - all levels of chapter in one packet.

So - peoples will pay most for updates every month) and updates will not be copied by piracy - (why? see upper).
and old chapters has a too cheap price - so it is easie to buy, than to find non legal copy.

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sory for bad english >_<

You're underestimating the powers of pirates there. ;) A pirate can simply go and buy these chapters (yes, pirates do buy things - they just repackage it and upload it to the millions afterward for free), then pack them together and upload it to the webs.

And there's always a way to crack something, even if you don't want them to. Take a look at DRM - companies always think DRM can decrease piracy. It only leads to pirates cracking it and distributing it free.

well.
First of all :
the way of thinking that "pirates can crack everything and you can do nothing" - will not solve the problem. :-\

Secondary:
Where are no cracks and piracy whith online games ("Eve", "Line Age", "Vendetta", others)- becouse it is too hard to hack server.

Result:
I suggest to think about how it is possible to use that ideas here?
Think about client-server architecture?

Think please! think and don`t cry any more that piracy is powerfull!  >:(

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sory for bad english >_<

[quote author=Denjs link=topic=1669.msg10914#msg10914 date=1237809936]
Secondary:
Where are no cracks and piracy whith online games ("Eve", "Line Age", "Vendetta", others)- becouse it is too hard to hack server.

With those games you are actually playing online constantly, rather than just connecting for each chapter.
Even if you HAD to be connected to the server and the server monitored you throughout the level, it is still a fairly simple process to get each level, copy them from the cache (poor idea!) edit the few lines in the main program that require the internet and repackage.
ANY DRM CAN BE, AND IS CRACKED, including on the games you've mentioned, it just gets spotted and "fixed" quicker, until the next crack appears soon after...

Well, you are speaking about it too easy. ("crack? kheh... we will crack everything! in two minutes!".)
And please - do not forget - the goal is not to make uncracked programm.
The goal is to reduce piracy.

>>With those games you are actually playing online constantly, rather than just connecting for each chapter.
to each level may be? load every next level from server may be?

>>copy them from the cache (poor idea!)
lets think - "you did it"; and that else?

>>edit the few lines in the main program that require the internet and repackage
waw!.... (there are no any "lines" at binary execution file, but lets miss it)

will you write an additionally program-code that will put collected levels back into cash after each level solving?!  is it joke?
If binary file can load data only from online server, nobody will write additionally code into this programm for loading levels from local storage without sourcecode. It is too complicated and intricate task. Of course, it is possible. but in theory. I do not know any real situation.

You have to feel the difference between "to crack" - change some asm-commands inside binary file, and to "add some new functions".

>>ANY DRM CAN BE, AND IS CRACKED, including on the games you've mentioned,
there is NO any DRM in games i mentioned. You can copy that programs as you want.
"Program is nothing - It is free. User and password are only important".
That`s why there is no "piracy" with online games.

think about it. Think how this ideas could be used with "World of GOO"?

PS:We know all about cracking. stop speaking about it! We have already know you are speaking about.
You know, we know - lets speak about that to do to reduce piracy.



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sory for bad english >_<

:)Bravo, denjs. This is what justice has wanted all along. No one's going to argue with you after THAT heated debate. You have some very good points and your motive is definitely not short-sighted.
I don't care what anyone else says, this is a great idea. :)

[quote author=Denjs link=topic=1669.msg10928#msg10928 date=1237842641]
Well, you are speaking about it too easy. ("crack? kheh... we will crack everything! in two minutes!".)
And please - do not forget - the goal is not to make uncracked programm.
The goal is to reduce piracy.

>>With those games you are actually playing online constantly, rather than just connecting for each chapter.
to each level may be? load every next level from server may be?

>>copy them from the cache (poor idea!)
lets think - "you did it"; and that else?

>>edit the few lines in the main program that require the internet and repackage
waw!.... (there are no any "lines" at binary execution file, but lets miss it)

will you write an additionally program-code that will put collected levels back into cash after each level solving?!  is it joke?
If binary file can load data only from online server, nobody will write additionally code into this programm for loading levels from local storage without sourcecode. It is too complicated and intricate task. Of course, it is possible. but in theory. I do not know any real situation.

You have to feel the difference between "to crack" - change some asm-commands inside binary file, and to "add some new functions".

>>ANY DRM CAN BE, AND IS CRACKED, including on the games you've mentioned,
there is NO any DRM in games i mentioned. You can copy that programs as you want.
"Program is nothing - It is free. User and password are only important".
That`s why there is no "piracy" with online games.

think about it. Think how this ideas could be used with "World of GOO"?

PS:We know all about cracking. stop speaking about it! We have already know you are speaking about.
You know, we know - lets speak about that to do to reduce piracy.



_________________
sory for bad english >_<


There would be four steps to crack this:

1-The cache limit will be a value check that any hacker will find easy to search for. Once you stop the check then the cache will never be cleared. Approximate time to do this: 1 hour top.

2-Change code that looks to server for levels to look on HD. Again some sort of counter or flag would have been used to decide what levels have been downloaded and what hasn't. Search for the code that checks those and modify so it is NEVER check and ALWAYS go to the HD. Time: Let's say this is more compicated than it actually is so takes twice as long, 2hours.

3-Remove server validation for Username/Password. By tracing the program and finding what calls the server and skipping the check. Another easy one so another hour.

4-ZIP/RAR cracked version and release. Time required: minutes!

Time taken by a good hacker therefore is under 4 hours, a learner may take 4 days working on one problem a day. Either way this "brilliant" idea is as worthless as all DRM, as noted by 2DBoy themselves and why they don't use any. That's why they didn't waste time trying to create something that they knew would not stop the pirates.

Online games don't have piracy? Don't make me laugh! What about the bots that play for you, username/password stealers, hacked profiles, etc. All these things are done and created by hackers/pirates who I'll bet haven't paid for the game!

Well. I suppose that you are not a craker. And it seems like you are not even a programmer.
And you know about cracks from fiction-stories and film "Hackers".

[quote author=TheHermit link=topic=1669.msg10969#msg10969 date=1237910534]
There would be four steps to crack this:

1-The cache limit will be a value check that any hacker will find easy to search for. Once you stop the check then the cache will never be cleared. Approximate time to do this: 1 hour top.


It could be not only "value check". It could be "phisical architecture limit".
Program could be designed in that way, as "limit of 4 levels in cash" would be an architecture property, but not a "value check".

Do you know what is a "bit field"? or a bit-flags?
Use "Bit shifts" operations, "unwinding of loop","manualy memory management" and other tricks - and you will create the program with "vary-bad limited" architecture ;)

for example a current level number could be stored in a byte fields inide one byte with others values.
bit 0-1 - are the cash slot number. bit 2-7 - are another values. Hard level, number of extended Goos or others....

no "value check", no number 4 as a value. Number 4 in a structure of code ;)
good luck to you with "hacking it" and increasing cash limit. ^_^

There could not be other nombers more then 4. Becouse of programm acrhitecture.
If you want bigger cash, you have to change architecture. but it could not be done in a hours or days with compiled binary file. Months at least, or years.
As a rule, it is easier to write a new client from the beginning.

If you were a C\C++ programmer, you were knew it. But it seems you not.

In the past I have written a handfull of utilities and games, admittedly not in C++ but assembly language, but the principles of programing/debugging are still similar, which is what a hacker does to crack a game.

To remove any section of code that does a check (cache full, logged into server, etc.) all that is needed is to run a trace that freezes the program when certain activities happen (net access for example) and shows what the current assembly code instruction is. Now look for the nearest comparrision.

From this you look before it to see what the comparison is doing, where it gets it's information from to compare and what it is comparing it with. Look after this to see what the outcome does.

As assembley code comparisons can only return a true or false it is easy to swap the outcomes, but usually a hacker will overwrite the first few bytes of the routine that starts the comparrison and have if jump straight to the required outcome. Even when checking Is Cache Less than ?MB you can only get True or False.

This "Brute Force" method is exactly how the Cheat cartridges used to work for the SNES, MegaDrive, etc and still work on the DS and possibly other machines that I don't know off!

It is also possible to have your assembly debugger look for specific changes. A common trick with the cheat cartridges is to start the game, lose one live, freeze, have the cart scan for possible locations that store number of lives and suggest options to disable. The same can be done for any type of situation, though the more complex the action the harder to find. So to find out how to stop the cache look for something that changes ONLY when the cache is modified. The time estimated is because the hacker will have to keep repeating the process untill the correct instruction is found. Hackers are annoyingly persistant...

Never seen "Hackers".

I've read everything you wrote. All it suggests is more time wasted by 2DBoy for almost zero benefit.

"The only way to effectively reduce piracy is to not produce a product" - I don't remember who is supposed to have said that, but it always has been, and always will be, true.

Hermit, why are you still thinking that there will be a "section of code that does a check (cache full, logged into server, etc.)". There will not be any "checking" that will limit the program.

I suppose to create "constructive limits", limits inside an architecture of program, and you are slill speaking about "section of code that does a check"...

Is there any checking in a city automobile about limitation of 4 weels? no. By design there are no more axles. I`m suggest "the same" - to design a "bad", limited architecture.

As I notified before - you physically can not write into two bits more variations than 0,1,2,3. And there is no any "section of code checking that". Use it!

What will "cracker" do with "resized cach" if all functions in program can adress only first four slots, Becouse of only 2 bits were assigned for slot number in game-data structures?
This resized cash is useless - "cracker" have to rework and redesign game-data-structures, records, memory allocation map and etc. and ALL function that work with that structures. It will take him up to year may be... only for cash resize.

And there are a lot of tricks like this one. Tricks that you can`t "hack" becouse of it`s nature.

"to make an unlimited life" whith debugger is rather different than "to get round the architecture limits".

_________________
sory for bad english >_<

Well, lets done with TheHermit ) His point of view is clear already, but he does not want to make a constructive conversation. And he is near to trolling, as i think.

Lets make a constructive conversation.
Is there any other thinks diffrented from "everything could be cracked"?
Some constructive ideas...

_________________
sory for bad english >_<

To say that you can create an architecture that will physically only allow what you define but uses no checks shows a poor understanding of data filing. By using "slots" to point to stored files may seem like a great way to stop more than a certain number of levels being stored, but again this can be over come by changing a few bytes of code. The "constructive limits" that you seem to think will solve this have to CHECK the first slot, second slot, third slot, etc. to find the level required. Change the code that does the first check and the cache/slot system is cracked.

Again I'll state what 2DBoy realised when creating WOG: No DRM is unbreakable. The time invested in creating any form of DRM (limited access to files/levels in this case) is wasted compared to the barely noticable effect on piracy, yet a major increase in support queries by genuine users.

If you only want "Yes that's great!" answers and no discussion on the possible flaws, then don't post in a public forum.  ::)

[quote author=Denjs link=topic=1669.msg10983#msg10983 date=1237921365]
Well. I suppose that you are not a craker. And it seems like you are not even a programmer.
And you know about cracks from fiction-stories and film "Hackers".

Who's the one trolling? ^^  :-X

[quote author=Denjs link=topic=1669.msg11036#msg11036 date=1238054694]Is there any other thinks diffrented from "everything could be cracked"?
Unless you write code trusted platforms only (which the PC currently isn't) I think everything can be cracked. It might take a while, and it might not be easy, but crackers can be both ingenious and persistent. If you want to argue that uncrackable code is possible, just have a look at history: every sufficiently popular PC game has been cracked and pirated, sooner or later.

(By the way, I'd argue that knowledge of assembly language is much more helpful to understand how software cracking works, than knowledge of relatively high-level languages like C/C++.)

[quote author=Soultaker link=topic=1669.msg11051#msg11051 date=1238088723]
(By the way, I'd argue that knowledge of assembly language is much more helpful to understand how software cracking works, than knowledge of relatively high-level languages like C/C++.)

A point I was trying to make above. ;)

Even though programs are usually written in C++, or some other high-level language, they are compiled before use. This compiled code looks nothing like the original source (other than reference tables, imbedded images/sounds and occaisonally other things) and as assembly only has a very limited command set it is easy to detect common patterns that relate to different things.

I willing to bet that even the most proficent C++ programmers would find dealing with pure assembly difficult. Take for example the number of variables that must be used to track the co-ordinates, velocity, freedom, eye position, pulsing, etc. of each goo in a level. In a high level language you just store all these in an array Goo(x, y, velx, vely, freemoving, eyepos, pulse, ...) for example. In assembly you would use something like LDA (#0000AB00), Y where the table holding the X values of the Goo starts at address #0000AB00 and Y is the current Goo number. LDA is the command LoaD value in the Accumalator. (#0000AB00) defines where to look for the value. Having the #0000AB00 in () means load the value found at this address rather than #0000AB00 itself. The ,Y means add the value of the Y register to the number in the (). So if Y=4 then A is loaded with the value found at address #0000AB04! (Actual command structure is different, but this works as an example!)

Next time your struggling to debug something in C++/VisualBasic just be glad you don't have to do it in pure Assembly... :D

WTF! I sad already - I am not going to create absolutly uncracked code!!!!
I want you to think about redusing piracy!

It is the complex of various steps, including redisign programm, moving some game logic to server, and changing game process may be.

We do not needs to have uncracked code.
It is enough if "time to crack" will rised up to few months ;)

The main point is not DRM. Only limited architecture and changed game process with some game logic moved to server.

The "Online WoG" sould have no DRM or a lot of "hard to crack" code, but simply be not usefull without server; and in ideal variant - with "bad" architecture that has no ability to be remaked to fully offline version.

[quote author=Soultaker link=topic=1669.msg11051#msg11051 date=1238088723]
If you want to argue that uncrackable code is possible, just have a look at history: every sufficiently popular PC game has been cracked and pirated, sooner or later.
Not all is too clear as you sad. "I want to play EVE for free on full accaunt" ;)
Is there "cracked" version of EVE?! Where are you, "great powerfull crackers"?!

Think about client-server version of "GOO`s World" please.

_________________
sory for bad english >_<

[quote author=Denjs link=topic=1669.msg11075#msg11075 date=1238148483]
Whith design ideas we told above:
1) Cracker have to CREATE a new level loading subsystem - a system that will load local stored levels to cash - it is not a cracking but programing. Jast another one difficult.
1.2) Cracker have to create a file format for package of stored levels. Jast another one difficult.
2) We have a working method to preserve cash size from encreasing. At least it would be tto hard, that cracker will not do this. Just another one trick.
3) Cracker have no ability to collect all levels "in a one day". Just unbrackeble time lag - a safe from piracy time period.


1) No. Not create new system just modify the existing one slightly as noted above. Not that difficult.
1.2) Why? There would be no need to change from the format they downloaded in. The original filesystem can read it, so therefore can the modified version.
2) Really? Yet to see any sign of how you, or anyone for that matter, could achieve that.
3) This would just piss off legit users. How many hours does it take for the average player to complete a level, chapter, or even more importantly, the game? I bought the game on a Friday at 3:15pm and had completed all but the last chapter before 11pm. Had I only been allowed to play one chapter in that time I would have been furious!

So after the extra time spent in developing the code for the cache/slot sytem, and then implementing restricted downloads, how long do you think it would be before legitimate customers are complaining about slow loading times between levels (due to having to wait for them to download instead of them being on the HD), problems connecting to the content server when it is busy, being restricted to how many levels they can download in a day? 2DBoy are only a small company and can't afford to waste time answering problems that those kinds of design decisions would create. This is why they decided not to use ANY kind of anti-piracy.

See here for 2DBoy's initial announcement on using no DRM, look here for a follow up on how the initially license key protected demo was doing regarding piracy, and finally here for how much pirating there had been so far of the actual game. Most interesting line is "one thing that really jumped out at me was his estimate that preventing 1000 piracy attempts results in only a single additional sale" and "either way, ricochet shipped with DRM, world of goo shipped without it, and there seems to be no difference in the outcomes."

2DBoy have stated they have no intention of adding any kind of DRM and that they have finished with WoG and want to concentrate on other projects. For additional content we are going to have to rely on the community. To push people into creating levels perhaps a competition may be a good idea...

[quote author=Denjs link=topic=1669.msg11076#msg11076 date=1238148932]
Not all is too clear as you sad. "I want to play EVE for free on full accaunt" ;)
Is there "cracked" version of EVE?! Where are you, "great powerfull crackers"?!


As you already pointed out there is no need to crack it. That is why the pirates use Username/Password steallers instead... ;)

[quote author=TheHermit link=topic=1669.msg11083#msg11083 date=1238170243]
As you already pointed out there is no need to crack it.

YES! no needs to crack. :)
Why "Online WoG" have to be different? no needs to crack!
and no possibility to create offline version. That is the goal.

[quote author=TheHermit link=topic=1669.msg11082#msg11082 date=1238169552]
[quote author=Denjs link=topic=1669.msg11075#msg11075 date=1238148483]
Whith design ideas we told above:
1) Cracker have to CREATE a new level loading subsystem - a system that will load local stored levels to cash - it is not a cracking but programing. Jast another one difficult.
1.2) Cracker have to create a file format for package of stored levels. Jast another one difficult.
2) We have a working method to preserve cash size from encreasing. At least it would be tto hard, that cracker will not do this. Just another one trick.
3) Cracker have no ability to collect all levels "in a one day". Just unbrackeble time lag - a safe from piracy time period.


1) No. Not create new system just modify the existing one slightly as noted above. Not that difficult.
1.2) Why? There would be no need to change from the format they downloaded in. The original filesystem can read it, so therefore can the modified version.
2) Really? Yet to see any sign of how you, or anyone for that matter, could achieve that.
3) This would just piss off legit users. How many hours does it take for the average player to complete a level, chapter, or even more importantly, the game? I bought the game on a Friday at 3:15pm and had completed all but the last chapter before 11pm. Had I only been allowed to play one chapter in that time I would have been furious!


1) That existing system are you going to change?
The system that will ask server "that shall i do now?" and server will answer "here is some data - load it to slot N"? if you want to use this one - you have to create a file storage structure, and recreate the same logic that will answer as the server does. Your have to create filenames at least, and somewhere to describe links between levels.

or you think that ""slots" are used to point to stored files"? i did not sad it. you concocted  it. There will not be any "stored files". Stored data - may be....
I think cash could be realized as a memory array and stored in a memory dump file. simple dump file with constant file name. no any subsystem "to load local stored files", as i sad.

So, any way i can create a system, there you HAVE to create a whole new subsystem to load levels from local storage.

Your imagine is bad. ;) you do not think complexly. You choose only one situation and crying that it will not work, and you do not think that I can (and will) design it in rather different way.

1.2) Where will you store links between levels? Where wilt you store an information abou wich level to wich position of cash after each level? this information does not inclided into game data. It is stored on server only. Client loads information in slave-mode, do not knowing that level it consists. But you - if you wand to create offline version - you have to store it somewhere.

2) see "all functions in program can adress only first four slots, Becouse of only 2 bits were assigned for slot number in game-data structures"

3)"How many hours does it take for the average player to complete a level, chapter, or even more importantly, the game? "
It does not metter. You have to play and solve all levels in game. Not all crackers will do it.
That is more than enough from this trick.

"I bought the game on a Friday at 3:15pm and had completed all but the last chapter before 11pm. Had I only been allowed to play one chapter in that time I would have been furious!"
You are thinkink up various not real situation in unreal conditions.
Who were you asked that you can`t load previos chapters? Or can you play next chapter untill current is not finished? You sre speaking about thinked up situation.

[quote author=Denjs link=topic=1669.msg11076#msg11076 date=1238148932]
Not all is too clear as you sad. "I want to play EVE for free on full accaunt" ;)
Is there "cracked" version of EVE?! Where are you, "great powerfull crackers"?!
This is true; if part of the game runs on the server (which is a trusted platform) then it becomes much easier to fight piracy. Still, I could point out that even for MMORPGs clients have been hacked and illegal servers have been created, although I'll grant that playing on an illegal server with a handful of players is not the same as playing with thousands on a single server. (This is the strength especially with non-instanced MMORPGs like EVE online, which is probably the purest MMORPG you are going to find.)

So you seem to suggest that to fight piracy, every game must integrate an online component to have at least part of the execution platform under control. In principle this works, but you should realize this doesn't come for free. Many people enjoy playing World of Goo offline (for example, on a laptop computer) which would not be possible if the game is on-line only (if there is an offline mode included, then you can bet that that's what will be pirated). I don't think removing the option to play without a network connection is always a good idea; it just depends on the type of game your making.

By the way, did you look at the other thread about OnLive announcing World of Goo on their service? OnLive run all games run on their servers, so that pretty much solves the piracy problem, but that doesn't mean everyone will want to subscribe to their service. I for one am glad that 2D Boy decided to make the game available as an old-fashioned buy-once-and-you-own-it type of game too.

[quote author=Denjs link=topic=1669.msg11085#msg11085 date=1238173963]
1) That existing system are you going to change?
The system that will ask server "that shall i do now?" and server will answer "here is some data - load it to slot N"? if you want to use this one - you have to create a file storage structure, and recreate the same logic that will answer as the server does. Your have to create filenames at least, and somewhere to describe links between levels.

or you think that ""slots" are used to point to stored files"? i did not sad it. you concocted  it. There will not be any "stored files". Stored data - may be....
I think cash could be realized as a memory array and stored in a memory dump file. simple dump file with constant file name. no any subsystem "to load local stored files", as i sad.

So, any way i can create a system, there you HAVE to create a whole new subsystem to load levels from local storage.

Your imagine is bad. ;) you do not think complexly. You choose only one situation and crying that it will not work, and you do not think that I can (and will) design it in rather different way.

1.2) Where will you store links between levels? Where wilt you store an information abou wich level to wich position of cash after each level? this information does not inclided into game data. It is stored on server only. Client loads information in slave-mode, do not knowing that level it consists. But you - if you wand to create offline version - you have to store it somewhere.

2) see "all functions in program can adress only first four slots, Becouse of only 2 bits were assigned for slot number in game-data structures"

3)"How many hours does it take for the average player to complete a level, chapter, or even more importantly, the game? "
It does not metter. You have to play and solve all levels in game. Not all crackers will do it.
That is more than enough from this trick.

"I bought the game on a Friday at 3:15pm and had completed all but the last chapter before 11pm. Had I only been allowed to play one chapter in that time I would have been furious!"
You are thinkink up various not real situation in unreal conditions.
Who were you asked that you can`t load previos chapters? Or can you play next chapter untill current is not finished? You sre speaking about thinked up situation.

So your cache is in memory? Easy option is to change the memory cache data storage instructions: Create cache in memory/disk. Write to cache memory/disk. Read from cache memory/disk. Most complicated of the three to change is the initial creation of the cache. Again not overly complex. Read/Write sections will require just a minor change. Once the cracker has played through the levels they will now all be stored on the HD. Now skip the section that connects to the server by overwriting the first instruction to a jump to the end of that routine. Online play for entire game now possible without ever connecting to server.

You think only a minor client should be used and EVERYTHING else should be on the server? This would require the use of a large bandwith server with fast data rates, and they don't come cheap! As stated in my last reply using a server for compulsory authorisation can be problematic, using the server to hold all content even more so. Long waits between levels as the data downloads & being unable to play when server goes down are just two. I can think of NO game that does this, for obvious reasons!

A cracker would only have to play the first level up to completion, find the code that signifies the level is complete and releases the "Continue pull chain" then change the "Menu button clicked" routine to point to that instead. Now when a new level is loaded they would only need to click the menu button to be able to continue to the next. Once all levels are downloaded then this change would be reversed.

I completed the demo, Chapter 1, in just over an hour. The next took roughly two. The third another couple of hours, and so on. I didn't do it particularly fast. About half I managed the first go, the rest in less than 4 attempts. Would you allow only a Chapter to be download each day, or are you suggesting that I am only allowed to play for a limited time? Both suggestions are the most ridiculous ideas for DRM that I have ever heard. Any game that did this would get a worse reputation than Spore's and sales would suffer immensly... Solve piracy? Hmm. Possibly. Increase sales? Not a chance! Lose them more like.

By far the most important reason why 2DBoy won't change WoG to use downloadable content is that it has already been released WITHOUT it.

To change the way the game works now would very likely annoy the hell out of all of us who have already bought it, put off people considering getting it, and make it the current unprotected version the pirates choice. How would you stop people from spreading the current version? That is impossible...

[quote author=TheHermit link=topic=1669.msg11093#msg11093 date=1238192079]
So your cache is in memory? Easy option is to change the memory cache data storage instructions: Create cache in memory/disk. Write to cache memory/disk. Read from cache memory/disk. Most complicated of the three to change is the initial creation of the cache. Again not overly complex. Read/Write sections will require just a minor change. Once the cracker has played through the levels they will now all be stored on the HD. Now skip the section that connects to the server by overwriting the first instruction to a jump to the end of that routine. Online play for entire game now possible without ever connecting to server.

yesyesyes) I nether sad you can`t change the memory) but we are not speaking about it)

well... So, you agree with me that cracker have to create a new functions(subsystem) that will load levels from local storage.

Why? Cracker have to create level storage (think about filenames and directory at least) ; he have to collect (manually!) and store somewhere crosslevel-information (level list and information which level to load next; and don`t forget - sometimes there are crossroads) and finally, cracker have to create a subsystem that will understand which level to load now (wich have to be integrated with level selecting menu)  because of crossroads in level selecting), and work with all listed above structures.

And all of it shoud work stable (and be tested) if cracker want cracked version be popular.

So, the first two statements agreed:

[quote author=Soultaker link=topic=1669.msg11086#msg11086 date=1238176817]
So you seem to suggest that to fight piracy, every game must integrate an online component to have at least part of the execution platform under control. In principle this works, but you should realize this doesn't come for free. Many people enjoy playing World of Goo offline (for example, on a laptop computer) which would not be possible if the game is on-line only (if there is an offline mode included, then you can bet that that's what will be pirated). I don't think removing the option to play without a network connection is always a good idea; it just depends on the type of game your making.

I think that game-cash would be enough for thous who wants to play offline. Yes, it is not soo flexible as full offline-mode, but i think we can change game process in that way, so needs for online will be considered as good. I do not have a lot of ideas about it, but i think it possible.

For axample the "GOOs` towers ruins from other players." It may be some levels have to be passed only in cooperation with other players... it need to be thought)

I doubt they are willing to make a new chapter every month.

Denjs, it is clear that your understanding of English is affecting your ability to understand responses to your posts. ::)

There is no need to create a file format to store the downloaded levels. Use the format they are in as they come from the server.

There is no need to create a NEW level loading subsystem, just modify the current.

Levels can be optimised for server/client loading? They are already optimised as described here: http://2dboy.com/2008/12/01/world-of-goo-dissected/

Adding more things for the server to validate, like level progress, will increase the server load and required bandwith, therefore increasing running costs. Once sales of WoG drop below the costs required to run the server what do you think will happen? The server will be shut down and then everyones game becomes useless. You think that they will keep the server running for nothing? No other game developer would. So they would have to charge a subscription fee. A great way to make the cracked version more popular.

Lastly the point you seem to be unable to face:
[quote author=TheHermit link=topic=1669.msg11103#msg11103 date=1238235643]
By far the most important reason why 2DBoy won't change WoG to use downloadable content is that it has already been released WITHOUT it.

To change the way the game works now would very likely annoy the hell out of all of us who have already bought it, put off people considering getting it, and make it the current unprotected version the pirates choice. How would you stop people from spreading the current version? That is impossible...

[quote author=TheHermit link=topic=1669.msg11152#msg11152 date=1238335727]
Denjs, it is clear that your understanding of English is affecting your ability to understand responses to your posts. ::)

I hope, I understand you are speaking about, but it may be you not clear understand I am speaking about?
Or it may be you do not want think well about things I`m writing?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I change the sequence of quotes...

new idea about "benefits" from using online mode :
a levels` notes from other real players.
If you can`t cross the level - read some notes or tips from other players.
Just like text tips at youTube.

_________________
sory for bad english >_<

new idea about changing game process : 
increasing configuration during level by level.

I mean next: the goo`s tower could be moved (like at last levels in last chapter), and configuration you have create at previus level is moved to next level, so you start not from default config, but from your own you have build at previus level. 

The trick should be next: sometimes the easiest configuration for one level will not allow you to pass next one. So you have to return and replay previus level with new config at finish.
Or you have to select another way at previus crossroad in scenario.

___________________
PS: in context of "Online WoG" - server will generate each "new level with old Goo`s tower" for each player. So, collecting levels will be useless - level should be changed "from try to try".

_________________
sory for bad english >_<

[quote author=Denjs link=topic=1669.msg11180#msg11180 date=1238401218]
We are speaking about new game. ;) I never sad current version have to be rebuilded and delivered in new format.
A new programm, new game, new (changed) game process, new concepts.
The one of the goals of this topic is to create a living concept of "Online WoG" )

Ah... So your going to write World of Goo Online? Why didn't you say? I take it you've got permission from 2DBoy to use the name World of Goo otherwise they won't be happy... or are you under the mistaken impression they are still working on WoG or have started WoG2? If so, read this thread: http://2dboy.com/forum/index.php/topic,1636.0.html and this one: http://2dboy.com/forum/index.php/topic,870.0.html

If your "WoG Online" was to appear, unless new types of goo or level desgin features are added, I don't think it would take long before the levels got recreated for the original WoG by the various talented level editiors using GooTool. This has happened many times in the past with sequel games, and sometimes even with other games of a similar genre (UnrealTournament levels being made for Quake Arena, and vice versa, is an obvious example!) Interest in WoG Online would drop dramatically as people would prefer the fast loading times and lack of server validation on the original WoG.

As a 2DBoy sequel WoG Online would likely be a disasterous failure. It would annoy the many fans of the original who sing the praises of the fluid gameplay and how you don't really seem to be kept waiting between levels. Plus it would make people wonder why did they want to ruin their reputation for being anti-DRM when they are currently trying to point out to other developers the futility of trying to make a game uncopyable...

you misrepresent all.
I`m not going to write "World of Goo Online". I`m only discussing about "how it could be". Just ideas, how to keep this game live and not to lose money for authors.

I think only 2D boys have to do it. Who can except them?

"If your "WoG Online" was to appear, unless new types of goo or level desgin features are added, I don't think it would take long before the levels got recreated for the original WoG by the various talented level editiors using GooTool."

"new types of goo and level desgin features should be added". in other case the adventure will not appear.

PS: IDEA: new type of Goo-balls - Goos that use surface-tension for laying on water surface, like small oil drops.

"As a 2DBoy sequel WoG Online would likely be a disasterous failure. It would annoy the many fans of the original who sing the praises of the fluid gameplay and how you don't really seem to be kept waiting between levels. Plus it would make people wonder why did they want to ruin their reputation for being anti-DRM when they are currently trying to point out to other developers the futility of trying to make a game uncopyable..."

Don`t mix up "DRM" and restrictions putted on by "OnlinePlaying".
First is negative thing, second is standart limitation.

_________________
sory for bad english >_<

[quote author=Denjs link=topic=1669.msg11202#msg11202 date=1238454102]
Don`t mix up "DRM" and restrictions putted on by "OnlinePlaying".
First is negative thing, second is standart limitation.


So you want a sequel that will be useless for users whenever there are server problems, cost money for 2DBoy to run AFTER the game is released, and be no use to anyone who can't access the net? Yeah that make perfect sense... ::)

Go on, tell me you can "fix" those three points! :-X